Tomoki Matsuura| Programme Specialist, UNDP, Senegal.

Welcome to the United Nations career journey podcast where we interview colleagues working for the United Nations all around the world. Our conversations explored their fascinating career paths, what career satisfaction means to them, and how they keep learning and developing on the job. My name is Roxana Zlate. And today our conversation is with Tomoki Matsuura, who is a Programme Specialist in Dakar, Senegal.

Welcome to the career journey podcast Tomoki. Thank you for joining us. It’s such a pleasure to have you as a guest speaker today.

Thanks for having me.

Lovely, lovely to have you. Let’s get started and introduce you to our listeners as well. Give us a little bit of a background to you a bit of an introduction of how you began your career with the UN, please.

Sure, before I go into the careers, but I think I wanted to go back to the moment where I, when I realized that I work, I wanted to work for the UN. That was when I was 12 or 13. I was outside of my home country. And I wanted to read a book in Japanese. And I happen to come across a book that was written by the head of the UN ATR back then who was Japanese. And she talked about all the challenges that developing countries were facing what the UN was doing back then to support the less privileged. And it just occurred to me that this would be something that I wanted to do when I grow up. So that was really my first encounter with the UN. So fast forward 10 or 15 years, my job hunting didn’t really go according to plan, I had a clear path in terms of where I wanted to go first where I would go next where and when I would do my Masters, etc. But that didn’t go according to plan. So, I first joined an American company based in Tokyo, and I worked as a sales rep for two years. I then did my master’s degree in France. And that was when I got to do an internship with the UN Democracy Fund, which is based in New York. After that I worked for Japan International Cooperation Agency, Jamaica, I was there for two years looking at some countries in East Africa. And then came the opportunity in 2019 with the JPO program, which I’m extremely grateful for, and I managed to join the UN. With UNDP, I first went to Bhutan as a governance analyst supporting local governance, access to justice, disability, persons with a disability, etc. So, I spent two years there. And in 2021, I moved to UNDP sub regional hub for Western Central Africa, which is based in Dakar, Senegal. I am now with the regional stabilization facility. And I wanted to say a word about that. So, the regional stabilization facility is a program that aims to support communities that are just recovering from violent conflict or terrorist attacks that have been devastated in terms of infrastructure in terms of services, livelihoods, everything. So, what we do there is revive those services that infrastructure, provide livelihood opportunities for, for the women and the youth, which is basically a means to restore some sense of normalcy, and lay the foundations for longer term development work. So, I’m currently doing that across the Sahara region in West Africa. And I’ve always wanted to work in this kind of context and conflict settings in post conflict countries. So that’s something I really enjoy doing. And I’m really privileged to have had the opportunity to do that. I am currently in Pakistan on a short assignment to support the recovery from the devastating floods which happened in 2022 and this is part of what we call the surge mission. Surge is a mechanism that UNDP has to deploy experts and advisors to crisis settings and countries that are that are trying to recover from crises, conflict, disaster, etc. So, I’m currently part of that and will be in Pakistan for six weeks.

That’s so incredibly interesting. Thank you so much for sharing that that is a really rich career, I would say, a rich transition through different roles and different agencies as well. Also really, really interesting to hear about the mission you’re a part of at the moment, as it’s not something that I personally knew a lot of. And I’m sure it will be interesting to many other people as well. I would like to ask you, since you seem to have had a lot of a lot of work experience with working in crisis context with your current position, but in the past as well. What are some of the unique skills that you think help you succeed in what it is that you do?

I think, first of all, I’ve managed to gain the trust of the people I worked with. And I know it’s easier said than done. But it doesn’t really happen overnight, you need to turn up every day to work with your A game. It’s a continuous effort. And it’s, neither is it about being nice to your boss, and it’s about getting things done. It’s about setting and maintaining high standards and leading by example. And, most importantly, of all, it’s about exceeding expectations. You can do the tasks and things that your supervisor asks you to do. I think it’s important for you to add value, in some way, shape or form. Somehow, from, you know, the feedback that I’ve had, for my former supervisors, I’ve somehow managed to do that. So that’s that would be one skill that I can mention here. Having said that, I’m still learning. It’s actually willingness and ability to keep learning, I think, and keep improving. That, I think, is also one of my strengths. Because it’s empowering to realize that you’re not perfect, and you never will be, and you don’t have to be perfect, you can make mistakes, and that makes you more comfortable to take, take more risks and make more mistakes and learn from those mistakes. So, all in all, I think there’s self-awareness, knowing where you are, and what you need to improve on, is something important in working, you know, not just in the United Nations system, but also more broadly in contexts and work environments where there are lots of people coming from different backgrounds, etc. So, I think that would be the second thing I would mention. The third and last, I think I never shy away from challenges. I think I would like to think that I’ve had the courage to choose a difficult, difficult option, whenever I’m presented with, you know, different tasks and different ways of doing things that I could have chosen from. I think I’ve learned from experience that these challenges, make you grow and make you grow faster. So, I think that’s something that I have always embraced these challenges. And I think that something that I can proudly say.

Thank you so much for sharing that they also agree that self-awareness and not shying away from the difficult path are such important things to be able to, to bring to a team to have personally in your arsenal. And I think that will definitely help with building the career path that one might want to build for themselves. Thanks again for sharing that. And to piggyback on that a little bit. I would like to know as well. What do you think? What constitutes a satisfying career for you? What are the tools? What are the experiences? What are the things in your life that in your career in particular, that lead to having a satisfying career?

I do have a few things in mind, but I think I don’t know would be the most honest answer because I am very satisfied with what I’m doing right now. But I might not be when I finally hang up my boots or just hang up my pen, whether that’s the correct expression and in 30 years’ time, so, but I think I’ll give it a go, I think I would go back to my purpose and mission that I have for myself, which is giving people more choices in life. This came from the realization that, you know, if I were to lose my job tomorrow, I think I would have plenty of choices in terms of where to go next. Thanks to the upbringing that I have had the connections I, you know, the skills and the education, and everything is a combination of everything. Unfortunate and privileged to have many choices in life, but not everyone does. And development is about choice. I know I’m in the right organization to, to work on those mission and purpose. So, I’m very, very satisfied with that. And secondly, I think what would be satisfying is if I could say, with reasonable confidence at the end of my career, that I put my abilities and effort to the best use, and third, the wider society, my family and myself as well, because I take great satisfaction in giving and giving back to the world that has given so much to me. I think if I could say at the end of my career that I was able to give back to society, I think that would be very satisfying. For me personally, also, I do think one defining question, if I would be faced with one is, can I let go of my privileges, right to go for something I feel is more important? In other words, would I be willing to make difficult choices when I’m faced with difficult tradeoffs in in terms of career choices. So, if I able to do that, then I think that would go a long way towards kind of improving my satisfaction, overall satisfaction levels, with my career, because it’s not about the position. It’s not about the rewards and the privilege, but it’s about, as I said, putting my abilities and my time and energy to what I feel is more important. I think if I managed to do that, somehow, I think I would be quite satisfied at the end of my career. And lastly, I have to have to also say that we are living in a world of profound change and uncertainty. So, you have to be able to change with the changing times. And you know, what you’re good at today might not might no longer be relevant tomorrow. So, if I am able to change with those, the global megatrends and really reinvent myself to be more used to society, I think that would be something that would satisfy that would contribute to my satisfaction.

Thank you so much, Tomoki. Okay, and it seems that you really put a lot of, of emphasis as well to, to having a purpose to being in an organization that gives you that sense of purpose that gives you that sense of you’re in the right place to be able to, to really make an impact and being able to improve the quality of life of the people that need that. Thank you so much for sharing that. And it is interesting to hear that a lot of what makes an interesting, not an interesting, but a satisfying career for you is being of use to society being able to give back and putting your ability and skill to the best use of the people that you’re serving. However, that also leads me to, to wonder whether in these contexts working in an organization in which the larger purpose of the organization is so high level and require so much of us as the employees, the workers within this context? Are we able to achieve a good work life balance? And I would love it, if you can also reflect on that for us a little bit. Let us know if you have any insights on that. And if you do, do you also have any advice for how is that better, best achieved, or, you know, even to a small extent, because that is something that a lot of a lot of people struggle with nowadays? And I think it’s maybe even more relevant within an organization that has such a high purpose.

Yeah, you have to be good at taking care of yourself, right? Because we’re not machines. And I have to say, I am not particularly good at managing my own stress levels. I was burnt out almost back in late 2021. And I was literally spending a whole week just lying on my sofa. So that’s what can happen to you when you don’t manage your yourself the right way. And when you kind of spend too much time doing things, you know, to the detriment of your own well-being. So, I think it’s important to find that right balance between being nice to yourself being just listening to yourself, understanding where you are in terms of your mental state and your physical health. And you have to balance that with what you can do to achieve the higher goal that you just mentioned. You know, we all we’re all learning as we as we go along, and I have to get better at it myself. Definitely, health and well-being are the single biggest asset that you have to be able to contribute to society as far as I’m concerned. So, work life balance matters, in terms of how you achieve that, you know, it starts from the little things like taking time off some breathing techniques that you can easily employ, I play sports, I read books, I self-reflect, which is quite relaxing. So, there’s all sorts of things that you can do to, to calm the mind and have a better sense of self awareness. So, I would, you know, there’s no shortage of resources online, or books that you can find that talks about that in more detail. But I think one important thing is being able to say no, and it’s okay to say no, in work, and people will respect you for that I feel from my experience. So, I think it’s important to be able to draw a line somewhere, you know, just knowing that boundary beyond which you can’t really contribute in an efficient and effective way. So, I think it’s important to have the courage and bravery to be able to say no, even if that might upset your supervisor for one or two hours, but I think he or she will appreciate that.

Thank you so much. That’s very well put, yes, saying no, my upset on the short term, your supervisor, your colleague, but it’s, it might be beneficial in the long term and potentially, is what we should be striving for. And I think well-being is so important, or now, it is a very real thing, not just in our organization, and in our field, but in general nowadays. And I also think that…

Sorry, just coming back to the burnout issue, I think with you know, given the times that we’re in, I think it’s more accepted to talk about mental health issues and burnout being one of them. But just to give you a sense of how much that costs, the cost you and the organization, if you don’t manage yourself in the right way. I mean, I talked about not being able to do anything, literally for one week, one full week. So that’s a great loss to yourself and the organization. And I think as supervisors and supervisees, whatever your function is, I think it’s important to be aware of the risks and the consequences of not managing work life balance. And, you know, supervisors might say they’re supportive of work life balance, but you know, we have to walk the talk, and you have to be really proactive in making sure that people are in the right state of mind, and they can give 100% to the work that they’re doing otherwise, you know, we really can’t aspire to be a well-balanced organization, in my opinion.

Absolutely. And it’s really what I was thinking too, I think the trade off, as you said, of not taken care of yourself, is not not worth yourself and organization. So, an important advice for for everyone to really watch for your well, being your mental health, your physical health, to make sure that you’re being the best version for yourself and for the work that you’re doing. Thank you so much for that. And let me round it off with maybe hearing some of the advice or tips that you might have for anyone that might be interested in following in your footsteps, career wise. I also think that particularly your field is so interesting, and it is so relevant nowadays. There are so many crises happening. There are so many natural disasters, and non-natural disasters happening all the time. And I think it would be really, really great to hear if you have any advice for those of us, myself included, who might want to follow in your footsteps.

Yeah, which ever the field, I think it’s important, first, to excel in what you do. I think that’s your bread and butter, really, especially in an organization that aspires to be performance oriented, like we like to say. The good news is that from experience, with the very short experience that I’ve had with UNDP, people are watching more than you think, even if they might not seem interested in what you’re doing. They are actually watching you. And it’s important to realize that there are eyes on you. You can’t be complacent in an organization that aspires to reward performance, right. So, you have to bring your A game to work every day. Again, that’s easier said than done. But it’s about taking action getting your work done. It’s not about saying nice things and stuff like that. But it’s important to lead by example and show that you’re committed, and you are able to deliver even in very stressful settings, I post conflict and disaster contexts. I think also, we have to find role models, people that you can look up to. And I have been personally extremely lucky to have had the chance to work with people that I really admire. Because most of the time, you can’t choose your supervisor, it’s a complete lottery, I think. And if you are blessed with a good supervisor, they help you raise your game. They inspire you, they uplift you, if you’re not so blessed, I think it’s important to make a proactive effort to surround yourself with people like that, even if they may not be part of your reporting line. UNDP offers a lot in terms of matching you with mentors and people that have achieved great things within the organization. So, I think it’s worth looking at those options and thinking about who you want to work with? Well, yeah, I think it’s important to look at those options, and really take advantage of them because they do matter. And also related to that a word about working with difficult people, because looking back, they have been an even bigger influence in terms of learning lessons and making myself more self-aware. So, I would say don’t avoid them, face them head on. But you can always run away. So that’s a comforting thing. You know, you don’t have to lose sleep over difficult people, you just have to learn from the experience and come out of the situation as a better person. And last of all, I think I talked about my purpose and mission. But I think it’s important to find those principles and stick to them. You have to know your roots. What got you in to this job in the first place. And for me, that’s really important in keeping maintaining my motivation. When things don’t when things might not go according to plan. Or you’re in a difficult situation, if you have something foundational on which you can lean on. I think that’s really, really powerful.

Thank you so much Tomoki. This is such really great advice. And I’ve been taking so many notes for myself as well because this is this is really insightful and remind me again, how many years of experience do you have with the UNDP?

With UNDP? It’s three and a half years.

This is really incredibly insightful for someone that hasn’t been in the in organization for decades.

Yeah, thanks, it for me as well, it feels like five or seven. It’s been so intense and not always rosy. But it’s just been very rewarding lots of ups and downs personally. But in the grand scheme of things, I think it’s really helped me to appreciate, you know, what you mentioned about this organization being purpose driven, which is completely true, because you might be going through difficult patches, but you realize that what you’re doing is for the greater good. And that’s a really powerful feeling to have. And so, I do feel very privileged and happy to be in this organization.

Yes, I definitely agree. I think all of us come to the UN in general, because of the purpose of the organization because of one thing to make an impact in the world and to be able to put our abilities to where it would help the most. But I am becoming more and more with my little experience in the UN to be aware of the fact that there are some pitfalls that come with that with working in such a purpose driven organization. And as you mentioned, burnout is a very prevalent issue that people go through. And I’m really happy that you’ve reflected on this and that you’ve given us something to think about in terms of watching our mental health and our well-being in general.

I think it’s not a binary choice between working in a purpose driven organization and having good mental well-being I think both can be achieved at the same time. It’s not an either or right. That’s what the managers of this organization have to strive towards. How you achieve that right balance between contributing to the greater good for the purpose and the missions of the organization while taking good care of their employees, though, I think that’s something to be reflected on.

Thank you so much for that. One of the things that I think is interesting for listeners to know especially from someone that works within crisis, post crisis and disaster contexts, is a how challenging really is what are the challenges on a personal level more than on a work.

We talk about conflict settings post conflict disaster, etc. But it’s not a black and white categorization, right. And it’s a spectrum. So although I live in a country, Senegal, where it’s mostly peaceful, although there have been some political demonstrations played. I mean, you know, compared to other countries that I have been to just on missions. By the way, I don’t think it’s had as much of an effect or negative effect, as I had imagined. The same for Pakistan, where I find myself now because although I’m here to support the flood recovery efforts, I haven’t had the opportunity to travel to the worst affected areas. I’m just sitting in the capital, city supporting partnerships and resource mobilization. So, I think it all depends on the context and the specific the specificities rather, of your role and what you do on a daily basis. So, I haven’t really been in these hardcore contexts, countries where you have to live in compounds, and you can’t step out of those. So, it’s really a spectrum. And as far as I’m concerned, I haven’t really experienced those countries.

Thank you so much, Tomoki, for being here with us today.

Pleasure talking to you. Thank you.

Thank you. Lovely, and thank you to all of our listeners. We really hope that you’ve enjoyed this episode, and that our conversations will inspire you to keep learning and advancing in your careers. If you’ve liked this episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues and make sure to tune in for our next one.